| 1 | [09:36] <@Legorol> Noob Auctioneer question: in BeanCounter, I can see price columns named bid, buy, net, deposit, fee
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| 2 | 03[09:36] * Joins: snild_ (i=snild@a91-153-155-143.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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| 3 | [09:36] <@Legorol> it appears that net = buy - fee + deposit, which is not a great indication of profit
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| 4 | [09:36] <@Legorol> is there a way to see the quantity that is buy - fee?
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| 5 | [09:37] <@mattbnr> hello
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| 6 | [09:38] <@mattbnr> why isnt that a good profit indicator?
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| 7 | [09:38] <@Legorol> because the deposit is not a gain, it's something you paid once already
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| 8 | [09:38] <@Legorol> (i should've said income instead of profit i guess)
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| 9 | [09:39] <@Legorol> if i start with 100 gold, and i put up an item with 10g deposit and it sells for 200g, i end up with 190g at the end (due to 5% AH cut)
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| 10 | [09:39] <@Legorol> but beancounter would list the sale as net = 100g
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| 11 | [09:39] <@Legorol> oops i mean 200g
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| 12 | [09:39] <@Legorol> since buy = 200g, deposit = 10g, fee = 10g
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| 13 | [09:40] <@Legorol> bah, i totally messed up the example :D
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| 14 | [09:40] <@Legorol> let me start again
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| 15 | [09:40] <@Legorol> forget the above ;)
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| 16 | [09:40] <@Legorol> I start with 100g, I put up an item for 100g with deposit 10g (AH fee 5g), it sells straight away
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| 17 | [09:40] <@Legorol> I end up with 195g.
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| 18 | [09:41] <@mattbnr> ok
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| 19 | [09:41] <@Legorol> The sale would appear in beancounter as: buy = 100g, fee = 5g, deposit = 10g, net = 105g
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| 20 | [09:41] <@Legorol> that's confusing
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| 21 | [09:41] <@mattbnr> it appears right to me
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| 22 | [09:42] <@mattbnr> well wait
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| 23 | [09:42] <@Legorol> here is the reason why it's confusing: although that is indeed the amount of gold that arrived in the mailbox, since beancounter doesn't list a separate entry for when i pay out the deposit, the sum in beancounter doesn't add up
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| 24 | [09:42] <@Legorol> consider the sequence of my money:
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| 25 | [09:42] <@Legorol> start: 100g
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| 26 | [09:42] <@Legorol> put auction up, pay deposit, i have 90g
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| 27 | [09:42] <@mattbnr> to be honest i ahve never really looked at beancounter i have never had a reason to
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| 28 | [09:42] <@Legorol> mail arrives, i collect 105g, i have 195g.
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| 29 | [09:43] <@mattbnr> if you put the item up for 100g you wouldnt get 105 in the mailbox
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| 30 | [09:43] <@mattbnr> you woudl get 95 as the ah fee
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| 31 | [09:43] <@Legorol> but beancounter only has a single entry, and that entry shows 105g
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| 32 | [09:43] <@Legorol> so if i take my starting amount of 100g, and add the entry in beancounter, i get the wrong answer
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| 33 | [09:43] <@brykrys> I agree, I think the getprofit function from BeanCounter now correctly excludes the returned deposit
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| 34 | [09:43] <@brykrys> but there is no profit column atm
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| 35 | [09:44] <@Legorol> btw, beancounter has always behaved this way and i always found it a problem :)
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| 36 | [09:44] <@Legorol> imo your starting gold + tally all entries in beancounter should equal your current gold
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| 37 | [09:44] <@Legorol> no mattbnr, because you get the deposit back too
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| 38 | [09:44] <@Legorol> if you put up an item for 100g, fee of 5g and deposit of 10g, you get 105g back in the mail
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| 39 | [09:44] <@mattbnr> oh ok
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| 40 | [09:44] <@Legorol> but the 10g part is NOT profit, it's offsetting 10g you already paid out
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| 41 | [09:44] <@mattbnr> realy? i always thought they took the ah free no matter what
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| 42 | [09:44] <@brykrys> the net column should probably be called Received in Mail (or something shorter that would fit)
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| 43 | [09:44] <@Legorol> mattbnr: yes they do take the fee always
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| 44 | [09:45] <@Legorol> but if deposit > fee, you get more money back than the buy price
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| 45 | [09:45] <@mattbnr> ah
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| 46 | [09:45] <@Legorol> (which is not a gain for you, remember that you already paid that deposit out)
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| 47 | [09:45] <@mattbnr> see i jsut sell my stuff and grab the money i dont care about 5% here and there it really dont matter as long as i end up with more then i started with
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| 48 | [09:45] <@Legorol> brykrys: i completely agree
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| 49 | [09:45] <@Legorol> mattbnr: but this is important, this is NOT about the 5%
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| 50 | [09:45] <@mattbnr> going through beancounter columns is just tedious and not needed imo
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| 51 | [09:45] <@Legorol> i'm not talking about the fee, i'm talking about the deposit
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| 52 | [09:46] <@Legorol> if the AH fee was ZERO, the same problem would still be true
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| 53 | [09:46] <@Legorol> mattbnr: of course it's needed, let me give you a real life example
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| 54 | [09:46] <@brykrys> in fact, I believe the GetProfit function subtracts all lost deposits too
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| 55 | [09:46] <@Legorol> let's say I buy a cardinal ruby for 155g, cut it and put up a runed cardinal ruby for 165g
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| 56 | [09:46] <@mattbnr> so you spent 155g to make 10g thats dumb
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| 57 | [09:47] <@mattbnr> lol
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| 58 | [09:47] <@mattbnr> but go on
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| 59 | [09:47] <@Legorol> that's irrelevant for the discussion here, that's my choice ;)
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| 60 | [09:47] <@brykrys> that's the state of jewelcrafting these days...
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| 61 | [09:47] <@Legorol> (incidentally if that's how it was it'd be well worth it, since with 10 seconds click i can do that 4-5 times)
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| 62 | [09:47] <@Legorol> anyway
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| 63 | [09:47] <@Legorol> the deposit is about 5.5g on that, and the AH fee is 8.5g
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| 64 | 08[09:48] * Quits: snild_ (i=snild@a91-153-155-143.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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| 65 | 08[09:48] * Quits: @Esamynn|Away (n=nnnnnnnn@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn) (verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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| 66 | 03[09:48] * Joins: SNiLD (i=snild@a91-153-155-143.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
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| 67 | [09:48] <@Legorol> if that ruby does sell, i get a mail containing 162g
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| 68 | 03[09:48] * Joins: Esamynn|Away (n=nnnnnnnn@WoWUIDev/WoWI/Featured/Esamynn)
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| 69 | 13[09:48] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Esamynn|Away
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| 70 | [09:48] <@Legorol> that's the amount that will be listed in beancounter as well
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| 71 | [09:48] <@Legorol> just looking at this number, and seeing that i bought the raw ruby for 155g, at first glance it would look like i made a profit
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| 72 | [09:48] <@Legorol> but that's not actually true
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| 73 | [09:49] <@Legorol> the amount the ruby sold for (minus AH fee) is only 156.5g, a minimal profit
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| 74 | [09:49] <@Legorol> seeing 162g in beancounter is misleeding
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| 75 | [09:49] <@mattbnr> hence why i dont look at beancounter :)
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| 76 | [09:49] <@Legorol> it could even be worse, when the gap is smaller i could even be making a loss
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| 77 | [09:49] <@mattbnr> but i see your point
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| 78 | [09:49] <@Legorol> you don't have to look, but it's very misleading to the novice
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| 79 | [09:49] <@Legorol> they see two entries in beancounter:
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| 80 | [09:50] <@Legorol> i bought cardinal ruby for 155g, i sold cardinal ruby for 162g
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| 81 | [09:50] <@Legorol> without knowing/understanding the details, they make the wrong conclusion
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| 82 | 03[09:50] * Joins: Kandoko (n=Kandoko@WoWUIDev/Norganna/Developer/Kandoko)
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| 83 | 03[09:50] * Joins: Droolio (n=drool@87-194-188-170.bethere.co.uk)
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| 84 | 13[09:50] * irc.freenode.net sets mode: +oo Kandoko Droolio
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| 85 | [09:51] <@mattbnr> doesnt Kandoko work on beancounter stuff?
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| 86 | 08[09:51] * Quits: @dinesh (n=dinesh@WoWUIDev/Norganna/PRManager/Dinesh) ("Leaving.")
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| 87 | 08[09:51] * Quits: @Prowell (n=Prowell@98.142.71.36) (Connection timed out)
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| 88 | [09:52] <@Legorol> as for going back to a different issue: why is it worth going through beancounter columns?
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| 89 | [09:52] <@Legorol> the answer is: i have a bad memory and i sell tons of stuff
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| 90 | [09:52] <@Legorol> it's a very good way to remind myself what sold and what did i make profit on
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| 91 | [09:52] <@mattbnr> ive played thsi game for 3 years and i have probably looked at the beancounter window------ 10 times
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| 92 | [09:53] <@Legorol> that's your choice :) i find it a great tool
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| 93 | [09:53] <@Legorol> just because you don't use it doesn't mean other people don't, or it wouldn't be part of Auctioneer, would it
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| 94 | [09:53] <@mattbnr> its too cumbersome to sort through looking through 10000 items trying to find the top 5 sellers
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| 95 | 08[09:53] * Quits: JoBbZ (n=JoBbZ@75.111.45.108) (Connection timed out)
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| 96 | [09:53] <@mattbnr> like i said i dont im sure others do its just not a tool i use. its time consuming
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| 97 | [09:54] <@Legorol> do you use any aides/tools to keep track of what made you a profit and what made you a loss?
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| 98 | [09:54] <@mattbnr> now if i coudl type in a serach on it saying " i want the top 5 most profit items)
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| 99 | [09:54] <@mattbnr> nope
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| 100 | [09:54] <@mattbnr> i just look at my gold if it goes higher great if not oh well
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| 101 | [09:54] <@Legorol> i agree that it's cumbersome to use
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| 102 | [09:54] <@Legorol> but for me it's better than nothing
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| 103 | [09:54] <@mattbnr> as long as i keep over 10k gold im happy
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| 104 | [09:54] <@Legorol> and i don't play Russian Roulette with my gold like that :)
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| 105 | [09:55] <@Legorol> well thanks for the chat, i'm off
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| 106 | [09:55] <Riorick17_> I wonder if any of this applies to the resale searcher ?
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| 107 | [09:56] <@mattbnr> as in?
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| 108 | [09:59] <Riorick17_> does the "Profit" column take into consideratin the auction house fee?
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| 109 | [10:01] <@mattbnr> im sure it does
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| 110 | [10:08] <@brykrys> there's an option for that, which is on by default
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| 111 | [10:08] <@brykrys> also an option to estimate how many times you will lose your deposit - lost deposit = less profit
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| 112 | [10:10] <Riorick17_> ah, I see..very nice
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